Adrenal Disease??

[Dar24]

I just found out last Friday that my baby girl Kahlua has Adrenal Disease. They gave her,,her first Lupron shot..

I had that shock and also the shock that she is between 3-4 years old. I bought her at the pet store in August 2007 and as a 4 month old..So she was supposed to only be a year and a half..So I guess I now have a middle aged girl..

Anyway I would like thoughts and opinions on which way to go with my baby girl..Surgery, Lupron, Melatonin Implants?? My vet is currently looking into seeing if we can get the implants shipped up here to ontario Canada..

Anyway your advice, tips thoughts would all be very appreciated..

Oh and for those who don't know me I have three fuzzies.. Kahlua 3.5, (Female),,Miss Prissy 1.5 (Female),,and Boodles (Male)Just over a year old..
I will go look and see what pics I have in Photo bucket and post some in another post..

[Dar24]

This is Boodles and Kahlua..



Kahlua just a couple of months ago before her Hair started to fall out..



And this is Prissy my spunky Real Canadian Ferret..She loves Kahlua but till this day still hates Boodles..He is such an easy going guy.. I don't know why she hates him so much..lol Anyways have tried millions of ways to help them get along and nothing has worked...They always ended up hurt on both ends after an altercation..So now I just keep them seperated..

[wildbunch]

Your pics are adorable Dar24. I have had little fuzzies since forever and am still learning the different techniques. I had 4 and then adopted or rescued 3 more and they still fight, so yea I keep them separated. I also let them play together and when 1 gets out of hand I have to put them in what I call the naughty cage and then let them out after awhile to see if they fight and they get along. Sometimes the time out works and then sometimes not.

[greta]

Omg, Dar! Your babies are gorgeous!! When I came on the 1st pic of Boodles and Kahlua together, I gasped because they are so beautiful. Prissy is a darling little Princess, too. I'm not sure about the laws in Canada, but in the States I'm pretty sure you could bring a law suit against the pet store you bought Kahlua from for misrepresenting her age to you. You would need the vet's testimony though, and proof that the pet store told you Kahlua was only 4 months old shen you bought her there and also you'd need the date of purchase. By now I know you're in love with your little girl and her treatment is foremost in your mind. So far I've been very blessed and haven't had an adrenal ferret. But once Cinco began developing 'rat tail' and I had his vet give him a melatonin implant (4 month depot). Cinco's tail hair began reappearing as soft fuzz within 2-3 weeks of the implant and by winter time his coat was lush and full. My boy was about 4 or 5 y/o when this occurred. There is also a liquid melatonin that can be purchased and must be given to the ferret on a daily basis. The lupron injection was a good choice too, and should show results before long if it's going to work foryour girl. Neither Lupron nor melatonin are cures, but they do treat the symptoms of adrenal disease and give the fur child lots more time with you when they work successfully. The only other treatment for adrenal disease I'm aware of would be surgery to remove the tumors from Kahlua's adrenal glands. Healing thoughts coming your way. Hugs, Greta

[Dar24]

I am not sure what our laws are here either Greta..All I know is when I mentioned to the vet where I bought Kahlua she gasped and said "Unfortunitely I am not allowed to comment at all on that pet store." Raises the eyebrows doesn't it?? There is definately something going on with that store.. I think I am more upset with the one woman who seemed so honest and friendly and knew all about Kahlua and was supposedly nip training her and playing with her daily.. I thought that sales girl was genuine...Now I don't trust my instincts..

But besides that.. Kahlua is really a miracle.. Now that I know how old she was when I adopted her..At least 2years old... She is completely deaf as well...So when I brought her home the second day I really scared her and she wanted nothing to do with me..But this wonderful girl after 3 days began coming to the side of the cage again and taking treats and ferretone from my finger...AFter that there was no turning back..She has been the best little girl since...She trusted me again..She has never even bit anyone not even once...Pretty good for a deaf girl...Wouldn't you say??

Anyway,, I am so glad that I rescued her from that hole of a petstore and gave her a home... At least now I know I can deal with adopting an adult ferret.. I guess I did it by accident last year.. He he...Don't tell my hubby,, that makes it easier for me to consider some older ones I always see on the online classifies..lol

[huronna]

I've had quite a few ferrets with adrenal tumors. And what I tell you is only things that I have experienced, and you should still discuss things with your vet.

Fist I strongly suggest that you read this
ferretfamily.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=17

In the ferrets that I have done surgery on, it was the left adrenal, but within less than a year the symptoms of hair loss began to reoccur. Because my vet did not have the capabilities of doing cryo-surgery we opted for treatment with Lupron. Lupron is not a cure for adrenal tumors, but it usually isn't the adrenal tumor that kills the ferret it is the side effects of the increased hormone production. enlarged prostate in males causing urinary blockage and sepsis, enlarged vulvas in females making infections very easy also.

I have three ferrets right now. 2 are 1.5 years old and the other is a little over 4. In all honesty if any of them were to start with adrenal, I would go the route of Lupron. Many vets use the monthy shot.....either because they aren't sure of the results or the cost is less for the client. I've always opted for the 4 month 2000mcg depot shot, which has worked from 6-9 months on my ferrets in the past. Granted to cost is about 4 times that of the monthly, but you don't have to give it that often. Do the math and it probably is actually cheaper in the long run.

Oh and here are a few facts about the Lupron injection. Her fur may take 6-8 weeks to even begin growing again. My males have been much faster than the females. Also when the hair follicules become active, your ferret may look like it's got black and blue marks, but that is just the beginning of the hair starting to get close to the skin. I was in a real panic when I saw that the first time.

Please keep us updated on your decisions and Kahlua progress

[Dar24]

Thank you Huronna...

I have been doing tonnes of reading..I did read that link you provided already..But what I need is some real people stories..Which you provided.. Right now my vet only gives the 1 month..But as I said she is looking into getting my the melatonin implants which she called down to the university of tenessee and found out that they think they work just as good as lupron and are alot less expensive.. But barring that we can't get them she is also going to find out if she can get the 4 month depot.. I live 40 minutes away,, and the drive alone every month is costly..Plus right now we are smack dab in the middle of winter so it can be dangerous too..So hopefully by next month she will have some info for me..

She prefers to use lupron than operate..So I already know her opinion on that.. I will ask her more clearly why she feels that way on my next visit..

Can I ask you a question though Huronna...Do you think Kahlua barring any other health problems will live as long without the operation?? Will she survive for years on Lupron or Melatonin??

Dar24

[huronna]

One thing to remember is adrenal tumors may be benign or they may actually be cancer which means there may very welll be cancer in other parts of the body.

Rocki was born in 1994, I got him when he was 6 weeks old. He was not a Marshall farm ferret. I had him neutered when he was 9 months old. When he was a little over 5 he started showing hair loss, it was not the typical tail/rump loss, it was bilateral down his back.
www.geocities.com/huronna/Lupron.html You can see the results of the first lupron We moved to Florida in June 2000 and by the end of Aug (8 months after the first shot) he was starting to show signs again. He had his second injection. BUT...his adrenal must have been cancerous because one day he woke up and was close to death. Rushed to the vet an exploratory was done and he had a cancerous kidney which was removed. He was recouperating well from this but then was hit with insulinoma. We were never able to get this under control. Every time we thought it was controlled, it seemed another mini-tumor in his pancreas would shoot out all that insulin and his sugars would drop again. He crossed the bridge in April 2001 and he was 7 years old. The reason I began with Lupron was because living in Puerto Rico, there were no ferret vets and surgery was not an option I had made the mistake of having Skippy operated on before we tried Lupron and Skippy died within 24 hours after surgery.

OK now on to Silveretta...she was born in Sept 1994 and came to live with us in Dec. 1994 She along with Rocki and Skippy all began symptoms about the same time. 3 ferrets and all adrenal at the same time. Silveretta got her first Lupron the same time that Rocki did www.geocities.com/huronna/Lupron2.html She was about 5 1/2 As you can see on that link her first was Jan 2000. In Dec 2000, we were now in Florida and with a very good ferret vet, so we decided on the surgery. She was one of those ferrets that never knew she had had surgery., That same night she was up, eating and going to her potty papers. All her hair grew back and she was beautiful ...for about a month and then the hair started to fall out again. My vet did not was to operated on the right adrenal, so we opted again for using Lupron, she was almost 7 at the time. You can see her hair growth after this Lupron shot. During the next 2 years she had two more Lupron shots and in Jan 2003 at 8 1/2 she has a complication with her spleen and she crossed the bridge.

And my Last example is the Miracle Man Mr Frick. I know you were around when he had the emergency surgery for his bladder full of stone at the ripe old age of 9. When he was about 6 1/2 her started with adrenal. The first melatonin implant worked well, but they loose effect and need to be done again, but the second time, there were no results at all. So we again went to Lupron. From the time he was 6 1/2 almost 7 until he died at 9 1/2 he had had 5 Lupron shots.

So yes, from my experience a ferret can survive and have a great life while on Lupron. The only dosgae I have ever used was the one that was recommended to me by Dr. Weiss when I e-mailed him the photos of Rocki and Silveretta in the beginning. www.custompetrx.com/articles/lupron.htm The pharmacy in the article is the one I have always used. My vet calls in the perscription, then I call in with my credit card and they send it to me. Then when I have the med I make an appt for my ferret. Being that you live in Canada, it might be easier for you vet to order it, maybe then you would not have to pay those high import taxes.

Hope this helps with your decision

[Dar24]

Yes your stories do help quite a bit.. I know you of all people ,,,if surgery is going to give them better quality will do surgery.. I remember Frick's story from last year quite well.. So if you would do lupron over surgery then it must be at least as good a treatment as surgery is...

The melatonin Implants have to be replaced every 4 - 6 months... So it wouldn't be much different then the lupron 4 month depot..But they are apparently much cheaper..Secondly,, I like all the things that melatonin seems to help with..So I feel like she would be getting a boost in a lot of areas not just keeping the adrenals under control..

I don't know what you mean by bilateral hair loss.. I don't think Kahlua lost in the normal way..That is why I didn't pick up on it right away this fall...She started loosing fur on the inside of her front legs and then on the tops of her back legs...Then a few weeks later I noticed a couple of patches on her back were gone..By this point I thought I should take her in...When at the vet's office under the bright lights she was walking around and I noticed the tops of her feet were bare...She now has a bit of yellowing around the two patches on her back.. Anyway,, she was 2.2 lbs,,good weight.. not extra itchy and definately no lethargy yet..She is the most active out of my three..She is my monkey..She loves to climb..lol

Anyhow,, I feel much better with lupron instead of surgery.. I will ask my vet why she prefers that... I would like to know what she says.. Hopefully if I can't get implants that she can get the 4 month depot.. She said she can get the implants even if they are not approved up here with an emergency script order..But that will cost extra..So hopefully they are approved in this country..

Oh one more thought.. I have been picking up in my reading.. If the adrenal disease is caused by cancerous cells or tumours that lupron won't work on it...Do you agree with that?? It is a good sign that it's cancerous if the shots don't work?? I also read that it usually takes the females longer to grow back their fur then the males??

I guess I'd better snap a picture of Kahlua right now,, so I can compare in a few weeks..

Thanx for your help Huronna,,

[huronna]

It is usually the side effects of the adrenal tumor that cause the problems. Of course if they are cancerous, there is probably cancer in other organs as well.

The adrenal gland produces hormones and when it is effected the increase in hormones increase the size of the vulva in females and the prostate in males. Because the female vulva is so close to the anus, it can get infected very easily. It is this type of infection that can get systemic and cause all other problems. With the males it is the increased prostate size. When the prostate increases in size it pushed on either the urethra (the pee channel) or the lower intestine. It can cause urine to sit in the urethral or back up into the bladder causing infections and or stones. If pushing on the colon, the poo will have difficulty coming out, sometimes only skiny ribbons, and poo you have to remember is mainly made up of bacteria. If the ferret can't get rid of the bacteria it will stay in their system, again causing systemic infections. On the article I gave you the link for there is a phone number for the Medial Arts Pharmancy. You vet should call them to find out the import problems to Canada if there are any.

While the Lupron 4 month costs about $200, the 1 month was about $50, so the price is actually equivilant. When I did the melatonin implant, I think it was about $75 and then the vet visit, making it about $100. I tried it twice with Frick, the first time it worked, but the second time , nothing...that was why I switched to Lupron with him.

BIlateral hair loss was on the back, he looked (Rocki) like a Mohican, hair down the middle of his back but both sides were almost bald.

[mysticalmanana]

My little Asia was adrenal at 6 months, she had her surgery at 10 months once we were sure it wasnt some retained ovary or anything else, 3 months later she is adrenal again. Her first was the left and it was a carcinoma, due to her poor recovery from the first surgery we hesitate to do surgery on the right until we have to so she was started on lupron 4 weeks ago and is getting the 200 mcg depot every 30 days. She hasnt showed any response to the lupron as yet, I am hoping she will and that it isnt a carcinoma like the first one was. The pathologist said on her report that we got it all and its a type unlikely to metastasize, I hope he was right.
I get my lupron called in by my vet and shipped to me for $35. if I get more than one and $40. for one which includes overnight shipping on ice from Taylors Pharmacy in Florida.
The pharmacist there seems really knowledgable and has good information regarding the lupron.
Their number is 1-407-644-1025 for anyone who needs it.

[Dar24]

Thank you I have copied both numbers from your posts into my ferret health folder and will bring them with me the next time I go see my vet.. If she hasn't had any luck finding the implants or the 4 month depot I will pass the numbers on to her..

[wanderinweasels]

I have had several with Adrenal disease and melatonin hasn't worked on any of them. My vet and I always go with Lupron if surgery can't be done.

[Dar24]

Just for point of reference...If I get the 4 month depot,,how do I know when it's time to go in and get another one..Since they apparently last longer then 4 months??

[huronna]

the symptoms will start to return. In the female you keep a look at her vulva, if it begins to swell and/or hair loss then it's time again. Silveretta never had a swollen vulva, but usually about 7 months after he shot, she would begine to loose hair again.

With Frick, the first sign was a urinary infection as he never lost hair once it had grown back. The second time, I noticed that his poops were very very skinny, as the prostate had swollen and was pushing on his intestine.

There is no exact time when the next dose is due. With the 4 month depot, this means that the Lupron is continuously released for 4 months. It takes a while depending on the ferret for the symptoms to rear their ugly heads again

[yukkabelle]

First your babies are so beautiful. And I love the picture where they are sleeping out the fish, How cute !!! For my experience, Nahum who will turn to 6 years old the 3 January is adrenal. Both of the glands are involved. Nahum is on the montly shot 175mcg (very low dose) with liquid melatonin 1.5mg each day 7 to 9 hours after sunrise (very important). Both are working well on Nahum fur. Nahum has a wonderful coat as never. I will ask for another ultrasond in no long time, for to see if the size of the adrenal gland have stopped to grow. I am very afraid with surgery and I will go with it, if I have no other choice only. Good luck with your little Kahlua. You are both in my thoughts and prayers, with love, Yukka.

[Dar24]

Thank you Huronna that answers my question perfectly.. I wonder how the one month works...Just go in every four weeks or wait to see if symptoms return.. That seems like it may be hard on the animal.. My vet did say sometimes she can weight six weeks before doing another shot.. So we will see..

I am sorry I haven't thanked everyone for their compliments on my babies...They are beautiful aren't they??But then I am biased.. ;D All three came from different petstores..But Kahlua and Boodles are Marshall ferrets and Miss Priss is a Real Canadian and a spitfire..he he

Yukka, since you get the one month depot, how often do you go in for Nahum's shot? And when you give him his melatonin do you change what time of day depending on the time of year?? The sun rises at around 7:30 now but in the summer it would come up much earlier..

[Dar24]

Oh forgot to ask Yukka,, how long has Nahum had Adrenal disease? How old was he when he was diagnosed?? Where have you been able to find liquid Melatonin?? I have looked here and can only find the 3mg tablets..

[mysticalmanana]

Please read down this post it shows how long each depot usually lasts and whats best to use and do regarding lupron treatment.
pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/message/5634
pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/message/3882

[yukkabelle]

I find the liquid melatonin in Jean Coutu pharmacy. You are in Canada, so I think you should to find it. It is the name "VIVITAS" "Sleep Right" 3mg dosage, you can perhaps call the pharmacy and ask to the pharmacian for order it.
Yes the time of the day change, but we have a big margin of 2 hours, I often give Nahum his melatonin near 2:30 pm now and yes much earlier in summer time. Saddly I can't do it at the right time as the Saturday and Sunday because my job, so I give to Nahum for the Sunday at 10:30 a.m. and Saturday at 12:30 a.m. But I try to respect the hours carefully.

Nahum has his shot of Lupron at each month. He has had already 3 shots. I believe he is adrenal since one year ago or so. But Nahum has had many others health issue since 2005... He has an ultrasound the 10 october 2008 showing his glands 3 times more big as normal. He has is first shot the 3 october. But I had started the liquid melatonin in July 2008.

Nahum will be 6 years old the 3 January, so he was diagnosed at 5 1/2, but I am almost certain Nahum is adrenal since more long time...

The total regrow of the fur was in the middle of November. So 6 weeks after the first treatment Lupron.

I have seen result before the Lupron with only the melatonin, but only on the tail. Nahum was nacked on his back and butt and had also had skin problem.

Now his skin is beautiful and his fur too.

If you have another questions don't hesitate.
I hope that helps

[Dar24]

Thanx Yukka,,

I have seen Sleep Right in the drug store..didn't realize it was melatonin..Of course I wasn't looking for melatonin at the time..lol I am waiting to see if my vet can get the implants..It will be much easier if she can do that..Then I don't have to be home at a certain time to give the oral melatonin... How do you give it to Nahum?? Do you put it in soup for him or in some ferretone??

Sounds like from what I have been reading...That the one month should be given on time every month... So that is good to know..

I have some pictures I took of Kahlua yesterday.. I am going to upload them and see if they turned out...She doesn't have severe hairloss yet...Just mostly on her legs and feet.. I think we caught her in the early stages...She has a slightly swollen vulva..But the vet said I wouldn't have noticed it myself since I have never had an adrenal female before..But as soon as I came home I compared Kahlua to Miss Priss and then I could definately see a difference..Good thing I have two girls.. he he

[Dar24]

Oh forgot to mention I have read those articles you posted Deb...Now I am in the midst of reading as much as I can on Adrenal disease and Lupron and Melatonin.. The FHL is a handy place to do research..

[yukkabelle]

Yes the article that Deb has gave are really great, I just read them again.
I give to Nahum 1.5mg in his baby lamb food (as a soup with warm water). I put the liquid in last because I am afraid the warm could kill its effects. Also I put the melatonin bottle in the fridge in the boxe for protect it from light...Yes on month Lupron depot must to be given at each month.
Because that seems to works well, Nahum's vet is afraid to change anything, and I agree.

Other thing she gives the shot in the muscular back leg. It is big pain and stress for Nahum, she asked on forums vets and the shot can be done under the skin. But now again because that worked when it was given in the muscular she is afraid to change for the under skin...
Something to think about it for my Nahum. I hate to know that it is pain for him...

Can't wait to see others pictures of your gorgeous girl

[Dar24]

I had to circle where Kahlua's hairloss is on her back because you can't see it in the picture.. I want to keep these as a record anyway.. As you can see she has way more loss on her back legs..Also what you can't see is she is bare on the inside of her front legs..Her hair is very wirey and brittle though..Not soft and silky like my other two..

She is 2.2 lbs at this point so her weight is good...I think it's her daily soup I give her. he he

Sorry I am not as good a photographer as you Yukka..Especially Kahlua my camera doesn't like white much..lol

Wow these are big pictures..Guess my camera is set on the highest setting..








My vet gave Kahlua her Lupron shot in the back left hip..She did warn that Kahlua may be sore there for a couple of days..But Kahlua hasn't shown any signs of soreness and she barely reacted when the shot was given..Thank goodness..

[yukkabelle]

She is really precious. The loss of hair on her legs is well showing on your photographies. She still has a beautiful tail. Yes white baby is not easy to picture. Not using flash when it is possible is good, because the white color is reflecting all the light. I am glad to know that Kahlua is taken her shot easely with no too much pain. Perhaps your vet did the shot under the skin ? that seems more comfortable. Please continue to update us on her progress. Kisses and hugs to your baby girl.