What happened?

[momof3fuzzies]

My precious Mittens is now at the bridge with Jenny and Jimmy-girl having a wonderful time, I know, but what happened?
The doctor and I knew that the tumor would be large (from the x-ray) but we did not know how it was entangled with the vena-cava. How she explained it was that the left gland was the one with the tumor and it was the size of a normal size gum ball, she showed the tumor to me. the tumor was extended behind the vena cava. She said that she used a q-tip to left the vena-cava to pry the tumor out from under it and in so doing the vena-cava snapped in half.
I realize that these arteries and organs are fragile but I cannot grasp this, knowing how detrimental it would be to destroy the vena cava like this. Why didn't she just stop, realizing the danger and risk she was putting Mittens In, and just come out and tell me that this was too risky of a procedure. He would be with me today if she had. We then could have proceeded with more melatonin or Lupron, giving him at least another year. It was about 2:30 in the afternoon when I was able to see Mittens. He was drugged up on Morphin and was bundled up to keep warm. His heart rate was normal. His breathing was nornal, and his coloring was normal. I stayed with him for about 30 minutes. The doctor said that she would take him home with her for the night, but first give me a call to up-date his condition. It was just before 6:00 when I got "the call".
I will never allow her to see any more of my babies. I also blame myself, I should not have waited a year to have the surgery. As soon as we knew that he was adrenal, I should have scheduled the surgery, then maybe the tumor would not have grown so large, but I was under the understanding that the implant would stop the tumor from growing, it did not. I also waited because my husband had just been laid off and I didn't want to spend the money until he found another job. Unfortunately he still is out of work, so I finally just scheduled the surgery.
Now I am faced with the decision to schedule the same surgery for Coogles, he is starting to show the classic signs of adrenal, slight hair loss on the tail and sexual aggression ( he would pin Mittens down and bo-bo on his ears). I am so scared, I don't know what to do. Part of me says no surgery, put him on Lupron and Melatonin until the end and part of me says to schedule the surgery with another doctor as soon as possible. Please give me advise.

Christina

[wildbunch]

Mittens will be missed and looked after at the bridge by some of the Wild Bunch. Again you and Mittens are in our prayers.

[shadoe]

I am so sorry for your loss. THere are somew bad vets out there jsut like some bad people Doctors. I feel so bad about how you lost your baby.

[huronna]

First I have a question. You keep saying that it was the left adrenal that was involved with the vena cava. I keep scratching my head on that one because usually the left adrenal removal is quite simple while the removal of the right one is the real difficult procedure and many vets will not attempt it unless they have laser or cryosurgery techniques.

Hind sight is always something that kicks us in the butt. What if? What if? One never knows what if and to give you advice on what has already happened would be fruitless.

I do agree with you though, if this vet saw the difficulties, the option to continue or close up and treat different should have been given to you.

You are correct that neither Lupron or Melatonin will stop the tumor from growing. It is usually the side effects of the tumor and the excess hormone secretion which is the downfall of the ferret. Lupron especially keep the adrenal from producing so much hormone and eases those side effects quite well. But still no cure.

Also regarding surgery, too many times once you remove one adrenal, the other one decided to go into overdrive and it winds up enlarging also.

Though I have had ferrets since 1984, I usually only have 4 or at most 4 at a time. My first adrenal surgery was a disaster and Skippy died within 24 hours. We were in Puerto Rico at the time and though the vet was a really good vet surgeon, he had never done this surgery on a ferret. I soon moved back to the USA to Florida and found a ferret vet. I had two other ferrets at the same time as Skippy that were adrenal. Three ferrets and all were bare butts. (You gotta love them) Rather than do surgery while still in PR I got them their first Lupron and watched the miracle or hair growth and muscle tone return.

ok so now we are in Florida and One ferret gets horribly sick on morning. I think its his adrenal, but on exploratory it turns out he has a cancerous kidney....and it's his right adrenal. My vet said he would not attempt the adrenal, but he did remove the kidney and that was a very successful surgery.

Number 3 ferret was Silveretta, who was about 5 and when her second shot of Lupron wore off I decided to let this vet operate on her. We had already discussed he would only remove the left one, as he had no facilities to attempt the right. It was her left and what a miraculous recovery she made. I brought her home at 6 that night and within an hour she was at the water bowl taking a drink and eating her food, and went over to the potty papers and did her thing. BUT....about 8 months later, the same typical adrenal symptoms returned. Hair loss, enlarges vulva, loss of muscle tone.....We opted for Lupron. She lives until she was 8 1/2 and had Lupron shots about ever 7-8 months until she died. Quite the success I might add.

Frick was already 6 1/2 when he started with adrenal symptoms. My first try was with a melatonin implant and that was successful for about 7 months. Then it was time for another one because he was starting with the hair loss and I knew the next thing would be enlarged prostate and urinary problems. There was absolutely no results with the second implant after 2 months, so I said....I'm not doing surgery because he is already over 7, so we did Lupron. Every 6 months like clockwork. When he was 9, yes 9....he had emergency surgery....his bladder was full of stones. Vet didn't want to operate, didn't think he would make it, too old...didn't even give him a 10% chance. But this was one heck of a ferret and I said....go for it, I'm not ready to put him down, lets give him a chance. We called him the miracle man after that. One more Lupron he had a few months later and he left me end of July when he was a little over 9 1/2 Who could ask for anything more.

My personal opinion, right now I have 3 ferrets One is 4 1/2 and the other two will be 2 in April. Even at those young ages, I don't think I will ever do adrenal surgery again. Of course I would take care of any other surgical need that might come up...but adrenal no. To use Lupron, the way I do it, the cost in about $225 each time. Luckily I have a good job and hubby also works and my ferrets come before many things here.

Oh my, I think I just about wrote a book here.
I am truly sorry for what happened to Mittens, I do think that I would look into finding another vet though

[Dar24]

Christina,,

I want you to know,, that I have been having the same thoughts about Mittens all day..And I know you feel guilt.. And you need to find away to forgive yourself.. You meant the best for him,,, Dont't for get that.. He knew you loved him...I think you definately need to talk to your vet and find out why he/she proceeded with the surgery like they did.. I have been asking the same questions as you and you deserve an answer..That way you can make the right decision about staying or not staying with that vet and also what to do with your baby that is now showing signs of Adrenal..

As you know I just found out one of my girls has adrenal,, and my thread was really helpful on advice on which way to go with her..I am going to post the link to the thread again..Read everyone's replies,, and hopefully you can come to a decision that you will feel comfortable with..

My heart goes out to you,, you are in my prayers,,

Here is the link: ferretfamily.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=119&page=1

[res0a47]

Momof3fuzzies, Wow I am so sorry this happend to your babie and you. Is there any ferret knowalbe vets in your city? I would do alot of calling if I was you to find the best one. I would go ahead and have the surgery done on your male. If he is young. I have 2 female that needs the surgery but their owners hasn't giveing me any money so I can take them to my vets. If I knewn he was going to do this too me I would have never takeing them. He made me a promis and he better hold to it. You are in my prayers. You are right that dr. should have stopped. I have never heard of any orgen brakeing like that. I am just wonder if she or he didn't acadently cut it and just told you it broke off. I would do some investagateing on that. If it is was cut than you will have a law suite on your hands for stupidty on the vet. Love and God bless. Sheila[glow=red,2,300][/glow]

[greta]

Christina Dear, You are wise in your decision to select another vet to care for your ferrets. I too, was puzzled when I read that the left adrenal gland was entangled with the vena cava. As far as I know, it is always the right adrenal gland where vena cava complications arise. As Huronna has stated, right adrenal surgery is usually not attempted by most good ferret vets unless they have access to laser or cryo equipment in their operating room. I have never heard of stiching and gluing a vena cava back together again. In your search for a new vet, don't be afraid to ask questions as to his/her qualifications, experience, equipment and the qualifications and experience of his/her surgical vet techs. I have as yet not had a ferret with adrenal disease but I have read lots of material both here on the board and also on-line and in books on the subject. It might help you if you research this on-line and compare the long range outcome of treatment with surgery with treatment with Lupron and also Melatonin. I feel so badly for you, girlfriend. God bless you. Hugs, Greta

[Deleted]

It is such a hard thing to accept, thinking you were helping them and disaster strikes.
It was not your error, but, I have to admit that I now consider surgery is only an option when life threatening, going from all the bad experiences others have had.

[momof3fuzzies]

Huronna, you are right, it is usually the right gland involved with the vena cava, but according to the x-ray, which I have a copy of, it is the left gland that was enlarged. She stated that it grew behind the vena cava to the right encasing the Verna cava.

Shelia, I agree with you, I don't understand how the vena cava would snap in half by the pressure of a q-tip. Could she have cut it.

Dar, I am so glad that you were able to use all of the great advise that you received with your thread about your sweet little girl. As you may recall I have used both Lupron and the melatonin implant in the past. I would do either one again, but every ferret could react differently.
I know that in the long run, I need to get past this pain and anger and learn from this. I already have in mind another vet. She is just over an hour drive away, but I know first hand that she is well experienced with ferrets and the emergency hospital is state of the art. Along with this comes a much higher bill, but what is money when it comes to the best care of our little loved ones. This is the same doctor who did emergency surgery on my Cinnamon a few years ago, for swallowing a popcorn kernel and getting a blockage. She handled it compassionately and professionally. I will be calling her soon to discuss treatment for Coogles.

[yukkabelle]

I am so so very sorry. Poor you and Poor little Mittens.
It is not your fault, believe me.
I lost my precious Cody after a pee blockage. 3 weeks before I have opted for the surgery (the lupron didn't work) the vet opened Cody but didn't make the surgery. It was the right gland and very too close the veina cava. .... You see where I want to put your mind ... 3 weeks later Cody had suffer for long hours because he tried so hard to pee...
Sometimes whith all what we do, with our heart full of Hope, it is a battle against the Wind. We stay with our doubts, sorrow, guilty, and all that because we have done our best as you do for Mittens.
I wish I can have magical power and put the life in an healthy little Mittens. But saddly I can only share your pain, tears and frustration. It is unfair ...
you are right to go to see your other vet.
Sending Love to you
Yukka

[ferratootsie]

WOW...I don't blame you for being angry at the vet BUT you did what you thought was best for your Mittens. Yes, I would look into seeing a different ferret knowledgable vet in your area if one is available. Five of my older ferrets who started showing signs of adrennal have desoloren implants in them. It is supposed to shrink the glands for a period of 18 months to 3 yrs. They ALL have beautiful fur coats and very little agressive behavior. My vet is working with Dr. Wagner from Pittsburgh...trying to get this treatment approved.....this treatment is being used successfully in Europe. You are in my thoughts and prayers...

[momof3fuzzies]

ferratootsie, please tell me more about the desoloren implant. I tried googling it but nothing came up, and thank you for your support.

Christina

[linkie2001]

Christina, I think that it would be important for you to call that vet to know why she has decided to do it even if she was not comfortable with it. I'm very curious to know, maybe she'll tell you that she did her job, that Mittens had to fight to survive as that stupid vet had told me for Daisy RIP !

I have to tell you that it's very possible that the tumor was on the left adrenal gland and because of its huge size touched the vena cava. If an adrenal gland is the size of a lentil, well it's smaller than on this graphic & pic, so just imagine when a non-experimented vet or a stupid one goes in !!!
( graphic from : www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/johnson/index.php
pic from : miamiferret.org/fhc/adrenal.htm )






You see the green R and L for the adrenal glands, you see how close the right is to the vena cava (that's the blue, pink area in the middle, biggest vein of the body, the blood pressure is so very high in there, that's why even the smallest needle pin hole can make a disaster). Now that pic is enlarged, so you can easily imagine that it was very possible that Mittens tumor was on the vena cava.




You say that Mittens RIP has got a melatonin implant last year. Unfortunately, the melatonin alone won't stop the tumor to grow, it can help with the symptoms and maybe prevent Adrenal in healthy ferrets. They say that melatonin always works best with the Lupron for Adrenal disease. The only thing which can maybe stop the tumor, at least for some time is the Lupron. Dr Murray from Texas seems to be the only one who believe in this though !

I've reading on Adrenal since 2003. It's very difficult to know what's right or wrong to do when it comes to Adrenal disease ... I've lost my Cookie RIP to Adrenal back in 2005 and I did everything by the book, surgery for the left, melatonin, Lupron, surgery for the right ... the vet called me during the surgery, she wasn't able to remove the tumor as it was wrapped around the vena cava, so I've had to take that terrible decision to let him go. It took years, but now I know that it was the best decision.

I know that you'll do things different for Coggles, we all do that, because we learn from our experiences.
I wish you luck.

In MY book, the fact is ... if you ever suspect Adrenal disease in your ferret, you do whatever you want, melatonin, Lupron, surgeries on the both glands ... you have 1 year left with your ferret, there's no way out.


I can count on one hand from all cases that I have seen in vet books, magazines, and on the Internet, the ferrets who had surgery on the left and didn't come back on the right side 1 year after. The ferret has 2 adrenal glands, if you remove one, the remaining gland will have to produce for 2, so that's for sure that the disease will come back ! Now I can count on the same hand, the ferrets who have survived to an Adrenal surgery on the right side. Even if you have the best vet in the world, there's no guarantee that the ferret will be able to live after a right adrenal gland surgery !


Please always keep in mind that Vet practice is a business ...
that even very good vets need money, that there's lots of stupid vets out there,
that you have the right to go elsewhere anytime if you are not satisfied,
and most important of all, that vets are not Gods !!!

www.nbclosangeles.com/news/Vet_Investigation_Los_Angeles.html

My deepest sympathy again for Mittens

[momof3fuzzies]

Linda, Thank you for all of the research you have done over the years. This is why I value this group immensely. Seeing the graphics helps me to make sense of all of this. For Coogles I am strongly leaning to Lurpon and Melatonin. I am also interested in the implant that ferratootsie mentioned in her post. Just like you stated, a left gland removal may cause the right gland to end up with a tumor and the risk of removing the right gland is something to be left to only the well qualified experienced vets and still no guarantee.

I have not been able to pull myself together enough to call the vet back. I want to be able to keep my composure and talk intelligently. When I do talk to her, I know that she will just restate everything that she stated after the surgery, but still why did she take such a great risk. I plan to call her on Monday. I know that they are keeping Mittens body for me to cremate. Just as I have done with my beloved Jenny and Jimmy-girl RIP.

Something just came to mind as I typed Jenny's name. This same vet successful removed a right adrenal gland tumor about four years ago from Jenny. I don't know, I think that maybe she just got overconfident with her skills when it came to Mitten's surgery. Whatever the case may be, I have lost all trust in her and I will be changing vets.

[linkie2001]

Christina,

Many people have hope with the Suprelorin/Deslorelin implants, but according to studies, it' more effective than melatonin but it won't stop the tumor to grow. There's not much new info since 2005. I hope Joyce you will come back to tell us more. I've read on another forum that someone had paid 135 $ for an implant and it can last for 12-13 months. But IMO you'll have to give the Lupron with this too. You can get more info at Peptech, scroll down and read the ferrets study here :

www.peptech.com/HTML/Animal_Health/Superlorin_Trial_Data.html